MikeToronto
I’ve been re-watching the loss in Houston and something came to the front after accumulating for a while - we don’t have a single player capable of breaking his man off the dribble one-on-one, without a screener getting involved. Not only was Harden doing it to Green, a very good defender, time and time again, but Rivers and Gordon were doing it too, and more than once. Our guards are not capable of such feats, and it limits their offensive options, and out team is also not well-equipped to handle such onslaught on defence. Not sure what could be done about it at this point, but this fact alone is why I’ve always pined for someone like Kyrie.
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Dskotek
MikeToronto wrote:
I’ve been re-watching the loss in Houston and something came to the front after accumulating for a while - we don’t have a single player capable of breaking his man off the dribble one-on-one, without a screener getting involved. Not only was Harden doing it to Green, a very good defender, time and time again, but Rivers and Gordon were doing it too, and more than once. Our guards are not capable of such feats, and it limits their offensive options, and out team is also not well-equipped to handle such onslaught on defence. Not sure what could be done about it at this point, but this fact alone is why I’ve always pined for someone like Kyrie.


It’s also by design by Nurse though as far as our defense is concerned. We corral people off the three point line and pressure long twos from behind.
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elT
Raptors drive stats per NBA.com tracking data:
- league rank in parenthesis:

Drives per game 49.5(7th)
FGM 9.9(10th)
FGA 19.8(15th)
FG% 50%(5th)
FTM 4.9(12th)
FTA 6.1(13th)
PTS 25.6(7th)
Assists 5.1(5th)
TOV% 6.1%(3rd)

https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

This indicates quite a nice balance in our offense. Modern game is still inside out despite emphasis on outside shooting. Unlike in the past, the inside part does not happen through post-ups but through drives, getting to the paint, forcing the defense to collapse, moving the ball out of there and finding the best shot. In that, P&R(with all its variations) is the most reliable way to 1) make defenses think 2) gain advantage and get to the paint.

John Stockton and Karl Malone kicked ass for 20 years with P&R as the very fulcrum of their offense. It is the most unstoppable play in basketball outside of having a physically dominant mutant superstar like Shaq.

I think you are overreacting to a very bad defensive first half against Rockets and Kyrie show. We gave a shitload of drives to Rivers and Gordon that shouldn't have happened and wouldn't have happened if the team was playing with more energy. Boston's best play over last two seasons has not been Irving ISO attack but Irving and Horford P&R. It isn't there because Irving can't take his man one on one but because it is damn difficult to guard and it is so because Al is a brilliant play making big that can roll, short roll, play make out of roll and can pop outside. That fits so nicely with things Irving can do. I don't know why they are not running it every single time down the floor, especially with all the shooting they have.

What the issues are with our offense is often not running an offense and being stagnant, ball watching. When we do run our offense, it is constant motion and drives, initiated by some screen action that warps defense, brisk passing, catching on the move, decisive continuous drives that generate great looks as the possession progress. In that motion, practically every player we have, including the slow giant JV, 3&D specialist Green, OG, Ibaka and especially our guards are capable of getting to the paint AKA getting inside - which is the point - inside is still, by far, the best, most efficient place to score from. That is why defenses protect the paint first, second, third and everything else after that.

In our starting line up, two guys that can efficiently go one on one against almost anyone - Lowry and Siakam and one guy that can and does go and is top three in efficiency against anyone - Leonard. Still, going P&R with any of those in any combination is better, more efficient both statistically and energy wise. Lowry and Ibaka pick and pop has been deadly this year. When JV returns, Lowry and JV have a history of being great in it. And Leonard and JV have showed enough signs that they could develop their P&R game into a complete monster.

You might identifying the symptoms correctly but I disagree about what is causing those. There's been progress in our offense but we are still not running it consistently and the droughts happen almost exclusively due to passivity and lack of urgency. Other than that, we've had some shooting issues but I consider those nature of the game for the most part, as Pat Riley famously and precisely pointed out, it is a make or miss league.

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moremilk
MikeToronto wrote:
I’ve been re-watching the loss in Houston and something came to the front after accumulating for a while - we don’t have a single player capable of breaking his man off the dribble one-on-one, without a screener getting involved. Not only was Harden doing it to Green, a very good defender, time and time again, but Rivers and Gordon were doing it too, and more than once. Our guards are not capable of such feats, and it limits their offensive options, and out team is also not well-equipped to handle such onslaught on defence. Not sure what could be done about it at this point, but this fact alone is why I’ve always pined for someone like Kyrie.



agreed, it's been on my mind for a while as well.

I'm just not sure how important it is, in the playoffs. Obviously, having an elite guy, like harden of irving, it's a major benefit.

But it feels like those guys, except the 2 or 3 a the very top, lose a lot of value in the playoffs, especially in later rounds. Even a guy like curry has struggled so much in the playoffs. 

Was watching the boston game last night and, at the end, it was, essentially, irving vs Durant. And that has been a theme for GSW in the playoffs ever since they got Durant. Little guys who break you off the dribble are not as efficient against engaged, elite defenses with size. Size wins almost every time in that environment.

Since we're not going to get irving or harden, it's not much of an advantage to have a Gordon.

It's one of the reasons I was suggesting to go after beal, because he is that dynamic scorer that we don't have. I was never very comfortable with the price we'd have to pay, and he's no longer available anyway. But if we could just pluck him into our lineup, he'd fix a lot of that, at least in the regular season.
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moremilk
elT wrote:
Raptors drive stats per NBA.com tracking data:
- league rank in parenthesis:

Drives per game 49.5(7th)
FGM 9.9(10th)
FGA 19.8(15th)
FG% 50%(5th)
FTM 4.9(12th)
FTA 6.1(13th)
PTS 25.6(7th)
Assists 5.1(5th)
TOV% 6.1%(3rd)

https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1



actually, that indicates we're slightly above average, for whatever it's worth (not much). And Kawhi's hyper efficiency makes some things better than they are (for the rest of the team).

The fact is, our offense is not great (relative to the very best) right now, and neither is our defense. Both ratings and naked eye are showing the same thing. We had injuries, people in and out, and a tougher schedule. We had a major shuffle to the starting 5 and to the bench unit. So there are a lot of valid reasons that could explain it.

The problem is, there aren't a ton of games left in the season and we're running out of time to fix things. Hopefully the all star break will give nurse some time to adjust things and we'll see what happens in march and april.
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elT
moremilk wrote:


actually, that indicates we're slightly above average, for whatever it's worth (not much). And Kawhi's hyper efficiency makes some things better than they are (for the rest of the team).

The fact is, our offense is not great (relative to the very best) right now, and neither is our defense. Both ratings and naked eye are showing the same thing. We had injuries, people in and out, and a tougher schedule. We had a major shuffle to the starting 5 and to the bench unit. So there are a lot of valid reasons that could explain it.

The problem is, there aren't a ton of games left in the season and we're running out of time to fix things. Hopefully the all star break will give nurse some time to adjust things and we'll see what happens in march and april.


25.6 pts out of 49.5 drives per game is average? Both is ranked seventh. Fifth in assists, 3rd in lowest turnover rate. Average? You just looked at the numbers and saw 15th/12th/13th in some categories which are there to show the versatility of production out of drives. You don't want to senselessly drive and attempt bad shots or rely on drawing fouls, you want a little bit of everything and when you add that up, you want to be good in overall points per possession, taking care of the ball and creating out of drives.

How the hell is that average?

Nobody is denying issues on offense, I've been quite direct about those. But you might want to take another look at those numbers and maybe try to focus this time instead of jumping to conclusion.
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LX
But we need Beal.
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JeffB
LX wrote:
But we need Beal.


Agreed
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moremilk
elT wrote:


25.6 pts out of 49.5 drives per game is average? Both is ranked seventh. Fifth in assists, 3rd in lowest turnover rate. Average? You just looked at the numbers and saw 15th/12th/13th in some categories which are there to show the versatility of production out of drives. You don't want to senselessly drive and attempt bad shots or rely on drawing fouls, you want a little bit of everything and when you add that up, you want to be good in overall points per possession, taking care of the ball and creating out of drives.

How the hell is that average?

Nobody is denying issues on offense, I've been quite direct about those. But you might want to take another look at those numbers and maybe try to focus this time instead of jumping to conclusion.


I said above average, not average. This is not a team that wants to be above average, anything short of top 5 at both ends (on aggregate, not drives specifically) is bad imo. Our goal is to, at the very least, get to the finals - not to win a playoff round.
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moremilk
LX wrote:
But we need Beal.


you really don't think he would help us?

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say we "need" him, we can be very good without him and we'd lose to a healthy gsw with or without him.

But he would get us a bit closer, and if they have an injury, it could get interesting.

As of right now, there's lots of work to be done to even get to the finals, even though a lot of people still view us as very slight favourites. 

If we don't get the #1 spot, the road will be a lot harder, having to beat (probably) both boston and Milwaukee, without home court against the latter.

That being said, more important than any trade is to get this team healthy and playing closer to what they can do. 
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elT
moremilk wrote:


I said above average, not average. This is not a team that wants to be above average, anything short of top 5 at both ends (on aggregate, not drives specifically) is bad imo. Our goal is to, at the very least, get to the finals - not to win a playoff round.


Those things mean shit. How our bracket turns out is more important than any of that shit. Us peaking at the right time is more important than all of that shit combined and squared. We had all those statistical markers last year but crashed and burned because we had no answer to certain match-ups with Cavs. Yes goals are ECF and beyond but that can only be answered in playoffs. This team is not playing anywhere close to its ceiling right now, goal number one has to be reaching that and doing so at the right time.

And your continued refusal to stay on topic is annoying as hell.

Mike shared his observation to which I answered with relevant stats, you attempt to change that and force talk about other stats and dissolve the subject into something else just so it fits your narrative. Beal this. Beal that. Average this. Average that. NETRTG, point differential. The topic is "Breaking defenders off the dribble".


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LX
There have been some games where they looked like the offense from a few years back - drivedrivedrivedrive. And it worked pretty well. There are other games where they look like the offense from before that period, where the ball just moves around the perimeter. It’s all still coming together. They need to get to where there is a good synthesis within a tightened rotation. I think it’s best that they don’t show all of that now. As long as they know the hows and whys. I think the prerequisite abilities are there.
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