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JoeyJoJo Shabbadu
DanH wrote:
Why anyone would want to trot out bench lineups with no shooting at all is beyond me. Miles should definitely come off the bench where his shooting is needed most.


why would anyone want to keep trotting out starting lineups that have two starters (well 3 now) and put us in a hole every game, because the entire team keys on them?  Miles can shoot and fill the SF hole so we aren't in a hole in the 1st Q every single game.

JV should go to the bench and it solves the problem.
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moremilk
DanH wrote:
Why anyone would want to trot out bench lineups with no shooting at all is beyond me. Miles should definitely come off the bench where his shooting is needed most.



why you'd assume that the bench guys will play without any starters present is beyond me [smile]

If casey manages the rotations in such a way that we have at least one starter on the floor, we'd have at least 2 shooters present (if you consider powell a shooter). Since lowry plays at least 35 mpg, if you stagger CJ's minutes in such a way that either him or lowry is on the floor at all times, you add powell and you have at least miles/lowry + powell as shooters, so I don't see what the big deal is. Van Vleet will probably get a few minutes too, for his shooting, so I wouldn't worry to much about a shooter-less bench unit.


Regardless, Imo is far more important to provide space for demar and JV than it is for wright and siakam. The goal should be to maximize the time demar, JV and miles play together.


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JeffB
moremilk wrote:



why you'd assume that the bench guys will play without any starters present is beyond me [smile]

If casey manages the rotations in such a way that we have at least one starter on the floor, we'd have at least 2 shooters present (if you consider powell a shooter). Since lowry plays at least 35 mpg, if you stagger CJ's minutes in such a way that either him or lowry is on the floor at all times, you add powell and you have at least miles/lowry + powell as shooters, so I don't see what the big deal is. Van Vleet will probably get a few minutes too, for his shooting, so I wouldn't worry to much about a shooter-less bench unit.


Regardless, Imo is far more important to provide space for demar and JV than it is for wright and siakam. The goal should be to maximize the time demar, JV and miles play together.




Man, this team lacks three point shooting.

Lowry, Miles: our two best 3pt shooters

Ibaka: pretty good 3pt shooter but streaky

Powell: very streaky, only shot 32% last season

That's the extent of our three point shooting (one player off the bench). We better hope guys like DeRozan, Wright, Siakam can improve their shooting from deep. And Valanciunas didn't shoot threes for Lithuania this summer so not sure I expect much of anything there.

And I don't expect Lowry/Miles to shoot 41%+ again this season either.
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Toby
CJ Miles was stuck on the crummy Pacers for way too long. Is he older? Yes. Is he a tad slower? Probably. But I have an inclination that Miles will be stoked to finally play on a good team, and will spark many victories for Toronto with solid shooting and veteran wits.
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JoeyJoJo Shabbadu
JeffB_STR82DVD wrote:
Man, this team lacks three point shooting.



Which is why they asked everyone to work on their 3 over the summer.  The only person that has to learn to shoot it off the dribble is Derozan. And Norm could use that skill as well.  Everyone else can just camp in the corners. (well not JV).  I think we are only one shooter short. We need Miles cloned for now really.  Or we should be able to pick up another shooter either with the MLE next year or maybe at the deadline. I think that's another reason derozan plays on the ball more, because Lowry can just shoot so well.

Most of these players can add an almost average one IF they work hard enough, but its in how long that matters.  For everyone buried on the bench or in the 905, all they had to say to them was your ticket to playing time is to add a a 3 point shot at an average rate.  If that's not motivation I don't know what is.  Maybe I'm just drunk and too optimistic.  Well I am drunk... but you know what I mean [smile]

About your last point.  I think JV had to improve his range.  I mean, he can ignore it for so long, but this summer it was obvious with not being able to eb traded and they flat out told to him to do. I think he will shoot from outside for us, and the occasional 3 (say about 50 on the year) even if he didn't in Euroball.
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LKeet6
I think siakam and Wright can develop a decent 3. Derozan, not so sure...

I'd love one more long range shooter. Maybe someone can just jump up from the 905s. Maybe OG can develop one...
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deaner
It baffles me when a collective team needs to shoot better that the staff doesn't not address the issue and search out the best shooting coach they can. Raptors can pay Demar Ibaka and Lowry how much but can't invest in their growth. Isesome of that scotiabank money. Style of play, defense and shootIng must improve while the staff lays dormant.
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JoeyJoJo Shabbadu

deaner wrote:
It baffles me when a collective team needs to shoot better that the staff doesn't not address the issue and search out the best shooting coach they can. Raptors can pay Demar Ibaka and Lowry how much but can't invest in their growth. Isesome of that scotiabank money. Style of play, defense and shootIng must improve while the staff lays dormant.


Do you expect them to hire the 15 best shooting coaches to work with everyone over the summer that are in different areas of the continent and europe, and that every is going to agree to a coach picked for them over the summer?  Ok.

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JeffB
deaner wrote:
It baffles me when a collective team needs to shoot better that the staff doesn't not address the issue and search out the best shooting coach they can. Raptors can pay Demar Ibaka and Lowry how much but can't invest in their growth. Isesome of that scotiabank money. Style of play, defense and shootIng must improve while the staff lays dormant.


Dormant? The staff works with players throughout the summer and communicates with them. They can't be with them 24/7

Hell, a third of the team has been in Toronto for a couple weeks now too, working with the coaching staff. They're also given a list at the exit meetings of what to work on in the summer. There is more offseason coaching available to these players than ever before.
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DanH
moremilk wrote:



why you'd assume that the bench guys will play without any starters present is beyond me [smile]

If casey manages the rotations in such a way that we have at least one starter on the floor, we'd have at least 2 shooters present (if you consider powell a shooter). Since lowry plays at least 35 mpg, if you stagger CJ's minutes in such a way that either him or lowry is on the floor at all times, you add powell and you have at least miles/lowry + powell as shooters, so I don't see what the big deal is. Van Vleet will probably get a few minutes too, for his shooting, so I wouldn't worry to much about a shooter-less bench unit.


Regardless, Imo is far more important to provide space for demar and JV than it is for wright and siakam. The goal should be to maximize the time demar, JV and miles play together.




Casey will do the same thing he's done for years. He'll start with the starters, go to a mixed transitional lineup, then have bench units led by DeMar or Lowry span the quarter breaks.

Powell is not a shooter. He is adequate, and as such would fine with the starters where Ibaka and Lowry space the floor, but if he's the primary shooter in any lineup, the spacing will be awful.

DeMar carries, like, all of the offence when he plays with the bench. Spacing in that lineup is where we will need it the most. We can plan to stagger minutes all we like, but the easiest way to ensure we have Miles out there when we need him out there most is to bring him off the bench near the end of the 1st/3rd Q.

The goal should be a) to minimize the time DD and JV play together, especially without shooters around them, and b) to maximize the time DD and JV each play with shooters around them. DeMar and JV will be fine with the starters, because Ibaka and Lowry are great shooters and Powell is fine. DeMar should be OK with his bench unit so long as he has Miles out there - if Powell is the best shooter out there with him they'll be in trouble. And again, staggering a couple stars to play with the bench is manageable, but if you start trying to stagger everybody to extreme degrees, you're bound to back yourself into a corner. Nevermind when guys get in foul trouble, messing up that balancing act even further. Best to keep it simple. You'll see DeMar get some bench minutes with Ibaka at PF, but not all of them (I don't think Ibaka has 12 minute Q's in him like DeMar does), so it's best to be sure you have a top notch shooting wing lined up with him.

Similarly, JV would do terribly beside DeMar in his bench unit (and has done so in the past, even with Pat and Ross there). Lowry seems to be the key to making DD/JV work. So if they play together with the starters, that makes sense. But otherwise, JV should probably get some minutes with the bench - specifically of course the Lowry bench, which (with Miles) would again have two shooters to space the floor.

I'd be willing to bet Casey will be running primary bench units with Poeltl, Siakam and Wright all on the floor together, with one star and a wing. I'd much prefer that wing be Miles.
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deaner
JeffB_STR82DVD wrote:


Dormant? The staff works with players throughout the summer and communicates with them. They can't be with them 24/7

Hell, a third of the team has been in Toronto for a couple weeks now too, working with the coaching staff. They're also given a list at the exit meetings of what to work on in the summer. There is more offseason coaching available to these players than ever before.


Dormant, stagnant.... zero growth. Greer made us better and proved we could grow and then took 3 steps back. That's not great, but what gets me is the staff can't see the need for adaptation. I have little faith in these minds because they couldn't see what so obvious last season. They need to start trying to adapt daily... not force the same system for a year and then acknowledge it didn't work. If there's a scale for adaptability it would go from highly adaptable down to pound the rock. Guess where we will rate next season.
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deaner
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu wrote:



Do you expect them to hire the 15 best shooting coaches to work with everyone over the summer that are in different areas of the continent and europe, and that every is going to agree to a coach picked for them over the summer?  Ok.



Joey are you still drunk? One shooting coach in 2017 can do analysis and manage programs for 17 players.
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JoeyJoJo Shabbadu
deaner wrote:
Joey are you still drunk? One shooting coach in 2017 can do analysis and manage programs for 17 players.


Lol, no.  I just have no idea how you think one coach helping 17 players in 17 places,,  remotely from Toronto, over the summer is effective. The time for shooting to improve the most and for coaching to be most effective is June to October.  This is why they have their own guys to help them. 

And please don't even say that you expect them all to stay in the City.
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moremilk
While shooting is a mild concern, I think it's overrated tbh. We have more shooting compared to last season (ibaka + miles are better than Patterson + caroll). Demar is supposed to improve, wright has promise and even siakam, powell should be a better 3pt shooter and bruno and van vleet, if they see any minutes, are both good 3pt shooters.

In fact, the only two rotation players who definitely can't shoot are JV and Poeltl, everybody else has at least some ability to shoot it, and lowry, ibaka and miles are all elite for their position.

We may not be the warriors or the rockets, but we're definitely among the better 3pt shooting teams, on paper at least. Whether we shoot as many 3s as we should, that's a question for the coaching staff.
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Pzabby_2nd
moremilk wrote:
While shooting is a mild concern, I think it's overrated tbh. We have more shooting compared to last season (ibaka + miles are better than Patterson + caroll). Demar is supposed to improve, wright has promise and even siakam, powell should be a better 3pt shooter and bruno and van vleet, if they see any minutes, are both good 3pt shooters.

In fact, the only two rotation players who definitely can't shoot are JV and Poeltl, everybody else has at least some ability to shoot it, and lowry, ibaka and miles are all elite for their position.

We may not be the warriors or the rockets, but we're definitely among the better 3pt shooting teams, on paper at least. Whether we shoot as many 3s as we should, that's a question for the coaching staff.


Let's hope we're also decently consistent. Unlike last year. No point in being good to great 2 games out of 4, if you'll be shit the other 2.
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