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moremilk
JeffB wrote:


That's not surprising.  We are very good, no longer elite.....but a big piece away from possibly being elite again.  Losing Kawhi/Green dropped us down a tier...again, no surprise there. I'm happy with what I see though and in general with NN. 


Technically, we are extremely close to being a top 5. Imo, we don't belong in the top 4, but that 5th spot is up for grabs. Even the 4th place is somewhat debatable, as of today I would have Philly there, but clearly we are very close to them at this point in time. I just think Philly has shown they have another gear in the playoffs, so I'm quite high on their chances in the playoffs.

Beyond those 4, I don't see any team that's better than us, I'd take my chances against anybody, except maybe Houston which I'd have slight favourites in a playoff series against us.
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DocHolliday
Mobaigz6 wrote:


He'd be replacing Ibakas role in the team, which includes coming off the bench. I mean he really shouldn't have any problem with that. He's getting to play on a contender once again and is in the twilight of his career, he'd be wise enough to understand.


I can think of better players to spend 30mm per on...
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Pzabby_2nd
DocHolliday wrote:


I can think of better players to spend 30mm per on...


Assuming we'd be able to get them in FA or through trade?
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elT
Pzabby_2nd wrote:


Assuming we'd be able to get them in FA or through trade?


Assuming we simply don't waste 30M$ on an injury prone Love that was always bad defensively but is now merely average on offense. I'm a fan of Kevin Love but he simply is not the guy he used to be.
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Pzabby_2nd
elT wrote:


Assuming we simply don't waste 30M$ on an injury prone Love that was always bad defensively but is now merely average on offense. I'm a fan of Kevin Love but he simply is not the guy he used to be.


Kevin Love at his prime would be our starting center. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing if Love would be an upgrade over Ibaka (he would be looked at individually) and whether he would work within our team's identity, strengths, weaknesses, lineups, etc. (Not sure if he would be in this regard).

If the plan is to tread water until 2021 and see what happens with our youth, and see if siakam takes that next step, then it obviously doesn't make sense to trade for Love.

If masai decides we can push for the title in the meantime, then Love should be looked at. If my math is right, Worst case we dump him as a giant expiring the summer of 2021 and attach a pick if we need to, if we see Giannis wants to come and live in the danforth.
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elT
As for the vs .500 record, bunch of close games that could have gone either way. The team obviously needs to get better at closing to games and scoring against excellent defenses but those were always the questions going into the season. 82 games serve a great purpose in that regard, finding out what you have and what you need and trying to get what you need either from within or via roster moves. I see no need for major roster moves. Boucher's and RHJ's recent emergence makes me thing the roster if perfectly fine in terms of depth.

I'd much rather stick with what we have and find out what we really have. For me, this season was always going to be a championship celebration tour. Feel no pressure or need to prove anything. Siakam's growth is already inexplicable. So is FVV's. OG's growth is amazing and very encouraging. Those three alone make this season a win. If Powell finds consistency and his improvement holds, that is a really fine core for next 5-7 years. And then there is TDII showing loads of two way potential.

Way before Kawhi trade I kept saying I'd sign right there and then to have ten years of 50 wins and at least a round won. Online storm of platitudes and ringzzz culture be damned. NBA basketball is a wonderful game, a theatrical spectacle that offers amazing amount of quality entertainment and a form of therapy for me. Having my favorite team kick ass 50 times and for a round is super duper fun.

And then the Kawhi trade happened, first it hurt, then it looked great but there were major questions and then Raptors won it all. In retrospect, it happened all of a sudden. In reality, it was a long journey with lots ups and downs every season, including last season and the playoffs.

Why would the present be any different? Ups and downs are natural and good in the long run. Sticking to what we have and try to develop further is both more fun and more productive. And whatever the shortcomings now, like current record vs .500 teams, those are not definitive features of the team but a temporary issues that need to be dealt with. Dealing with it is what this team has done over last 6+ years. From DDR's handles being rudimentary to becoming worthy of primary playmaker, Lowry's growth and maturity to Siakam's leap, we should have learned a thing or two about this franchise.

Still, none of that means this team can't do special stuff this season. But it sure as hell doesn't mean it has to. It is already special. Since Kawhi left, this is effectively year one of post championship winning rebuild and year one of transition to new core. Wanna take a look how those usually are? Take a look at the Heat after LeBron left, Cavs, Pistons, Celtics. There's loads of fun to be had with this team, no need to go for it now or wait for 2021. It is crazy fun right now. Recent slump included.
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elT
Pzabby_2nd wrote:


Kevin Love at his prime would be our starting center. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing if Love would be an upgrade over Ibaka (he would be looked at individually) and whether he would work within our team's identity, strengths, weaknesses, lineups, etc. (Not sure if he would be in this regard).

If the plan is to tread water until 2021 and see what happens with our youth, and see if siakam takes that next step, then it obviously doesn't make sense to trade for Love.

If masai decides we can push for the title in the meantime, then Love should be looked at. If my math is right, Worst case we dump him as a giant expiring the summer of 2021 and attach a pick if we need to, if we see Giannis wants to come and live in the danforth.


Love is there because he is available since his team sucks and because he used to be 25-10-5 guy, not because of anything he is doing now or would be able to do here. He is brand name PC that was all the rage 7 years ago but if you try running modern games or software on it, you'll realize what a massive overpay it is just to have a glorified, branded calculator. It is like being a month late to a wedding, the bride is already pregnant all the drinks are gone.
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Pzabby_2nd
elT wrote:


Love is there because he is available since his team sucks and because he used to be 25-10-5 guy, not because of anything he is doing now or would be able to do here. He is brand name PC that was all the rage 7 years ago but if you try running modern games or software on it, you'll realize what a massive overpay it is just to have a glorified, branded calculator. It is like being a month late to a wedding, the bride is already pregnant all the drinks are gone.


Can you stop ignoring context? We're discussing a Love for Ibaka swap. I've acknowledged that fitting in Love to our scheme wouldn't be easy or necessarily better than fitting in Ibaka into our scheme.

Are you seriously arguing Love right now isn't better than Ibaka right now? Individually?

Being overpaid doesn't really matter since Ibaka is already taking a big chunk of our salary, and in my mind is overpaid as shit.
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elT
Pzabby_2nd wrote:


Can you stop ignoring context? We're discussing a Love for Ibaka swap. I've acknowledged that fitting in Love to our scheme wouldn't be easy or necessarily better than fitting in Ibaka into our scheme.

Are you seriously arguing Love right now isn't better than Ibaka right now? Individually?

Being overpaid doesn't really matter since Ibaka is already taking a big chunk of our salary, and in my mind is overpaid as shit.


No, Love is not overall better right now for Raptors.  You can't ignore context either. And I'd argue overall he isn't better as his defense is just, well, horrible.

How does it not matter when considerably more money this season and 90M$ after that?
Ibaka being overpaid or not does not matter, he is in fact expiring this season.

And can you check your facts? Love will not have an expiring contract in 2021/2022 but 2022/2023, that is 60M$ of guaranteed money over two years that we'd have to move in 2021 to open FA space. That is also 30M$ more next season when we'll need every cent to try and keep FVV, Gasol, RHJ or any combination of the three. I'd rather have Ibaka's bird rights and 30M$ more to spend and figure out who to keep and what cost between the FVV, Gasol, Ibaka, RHJ quartet. 

And Love will play what? Starting PF over Siakam? Starting C over Gasol? Bench F/C? Slide Siakam to three, bench OG, put Love at PF?

It would be difficult to come up with a move that complicates things for us more and does so both now and in the future. Getting Love now is James Dolan type move not Masai type move.
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Pzabby_2nd
elT wrote:


No, Love is not overall better right now for Raptors.  You can't ignore context either. And I'd argue overall he isn't better as his defense is just, well, horrible.

How does it not matter when considerably more money this season and 90M$ after that?
Ibaka being overpaid or not does not matter, he is in fact expiring this season.

And can you check your facts? Love will not have an expiring contract in 2021/2022 but 2022/2023, that is 60M$ of guaranteed money over two years that we'd have to move in 2021 to open FA space. That is also 30M$ more next season when we'll need every cent to try and keep FVV, Gasol, RHJ or any combination of the three.

And Love will play what? Starting PF over Siakam? Starting C over Gasol? Bench F/C? Slide Siakam to three, bench OG, put Love at PF?

It would be difficult to come up with a move that complicates things for us more and does so both now and in the future. Getting Love now is James Dolan type move not Masai type move.


You'll find I've been frank in the difficulty of fitting Love into our lineup. I also noted my math might be off on when he expires.

I really disagree that Love is individually worse than Ibaka right now. Ibaka defensively isn't nearly as effective as he was - even two years ago. His positioning ad an anchor 5 has always been in question (only need to look at how less athletic gasol is, but how better he still manages to be on defense as an anchor 5). And his offence is just putrid. His midrange and perimeter shot is streaky at best, and his post moves are somehow more predictable than JV's were. To compound the problem, he also has horrible hands and causes an immense amount of turnovers on plays that should be an easy two created by one of our super guards.
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elT
Pzabby_2nd wrote:


You'll find I've been frank in the difficulty of fitting Love into our lineup. I also noted my math might be off on when he expires.

I really disagree that Love is individually worse than Ibaka right now. Ibaka defensively isn't nearly as effective as he was - even two years ago. His positioning ad an anchor 5 has always been in question (only need to look at how less athletic gasol is, but how better he still manages to be on defense as an anchor 5). And his offence is just putrid. His midrange and perimeter shot is streaky at best, and his post moves are somehow more predictable than JV's were. To compound the problem, he also has horrible hands and causes an immense amount of turnovers on plays that should be an easy two created by one of our super guards.


First of all, Gasol is better on defense than nearly everyone at his position. Ibaka's defense being worse than Gasol's is really nothing spectacular. It is far from bad. It is still really good.

As for his offense, you are focusing on his limitations and extremely exaggerating beyond all reason. Can't even comment it.

You just want Kevin Love. That is fine. But he doesn't fit, doesn't improve us, is massively overpaid and has three more years on that massive deal. So if you are ready to completely change the team for Kevin Love, go for it. It won't be nearly the same Raptors team and wouldn't be nearly as good. And sure as hell wouldn't be any closer to winning the title.

OG and TDII will have their new deals hit the cap sheet in two years. You wanna jeopardize that with Kevin Love's 30M$ on the books? Have you honestly thought this through beyond preferring Love over Ibaka? Is there anything else there beyond that preference? Have you considered Love's health and injury history?

You want me to consider Ibaka vs Love in the vacuum but then talk about making the team better. Love would make the team worse in every way.
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LX

I would personally take Ibaka over Love easily.

Dealing one for the other makes zero sense. But - or as Kyrie might say BUTTTT - the whole thing with Love being on the market could help with any market for Ibaka, if the team goes that route. It could grease things up so more value slides our way.

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Pzabby_2nd
elT wrote:


First of all, Gasol is better on defense than nearly everyone at his position. Ibaka's defense being worse than Gasol's is really nothing spectacular. It is far from bad. It is still really good.

As for his offense, you are focusing on his limitations and extremely exaggerating beyond all reason. Can't even comment it.

You just want Kevin Love. That is fine. But he doesn't fit, doesn't improve us, is massively overpaid and has three more years on that massive deal. So if you are ready to completely change the team for Kevin Love, go for it. It won't be nearly the same Raptors team and wouldn't be nearly as good. And sure as hell wouldn't be any closer to winning the title.

OG and TDII will have their new deals hit the cap sheet in two years. You wanna jeopardize that with Kevin Love's 30M$ on the books? Have you honestly thought this through beyond preferring Love over Ibaka? Is there anything else there beyond that preference? Have you considered Love's health and injury history?

You want me to consider Ibaka vs Love in the vacuum but then talk about making the team better. Love would make the team worse in every way.


Again, if you actually read my posts, my hesitancy on how Love would fit into our team is clear. I'm absolutely not certain if he would work, or would be a solution (either in general, or as a solution we even want). You're completely mischaracterizing what I'm saying.

You think Ibaka in a vacuum is still better than Love. I don't. That's fine, we disagree.

You also don't think Love works with this team. I appreciate that perspective, since I asked for it!
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