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LX
I don’t understand the assertion that Fred struggled against length. He missed open shots. As did most everyone else. He didn’t have length matched up against him - he had a zone defense to deal with.

And i don’t see a lack of ballhandlers. This team has as much or more ballhandling ability across its lineup than any other team. Ballhandling against zone defenses is very different though. Reading and reacting is a completely different ballgame. Fred in particular did quite well to navigate through the spaces and find guys. They could have maybe used more of that. The main thing is that by Miami going with the zone it took away Toronto’s gameplan and all the triggers and actions they like to go with. It reminded me of how Nadal brought Federer to tears by going almost exclusively to his backhand and not allowing him to play his full game. Now the question is how effective that would be with Gasol and Siakam or even Thomas and Powell. In any case they are going to need to be better prepared for this sort of thing.
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DanH
LX wrote:
I don’t understand the assertion that Fred struggled against length. He missed open shots. As did most everyone else. He didn’t have length matched up against him - he had a zone defense to deal with.

And i don’t see a lack of ballhandlers. This team has as much or more ballhandling ability across its lineup than any other team. Ballhandling against zone defenses is very different though. Reading and reacting is a completely different ballgame. Fred in particular did quite well to navigate through the spaces and find guys. They could have maybe used more of that. The main thing is that by Miami going with the zone it took away Toronto’s gameplan and all the triggers and actions they like to go with. It reminded me of how Nadal brought Federer to tears by going almost exclusively to his backhand and not allowing him to play his full game. Now the question is how effective that would be with Gasol and Siakam or even Thomas and Powell. In any case they are going to need to be better prepared for this sort of thing.


I agree with the former point, the misses were just misses. It happens. I see people trying to pull causality out of the 76ers series last year as well when Fred was in a slump but sometimes a shooting slump is just a shooting slump (in fact most of the time it is, especially when you control for shot selection and type).

For the second paragraph, there are ball handlers and there are ball handlers. We have plenty of guys who can handle the ball. We very much lack in guys who can attack a defence and make it move, opening up offence for the team. Fred is not really that, he's more of a secondary attacker and floor spreader, better attacking a defence already moving. Lowry can do it with a good PnR partner, and that supplied a lot of what we were able to get against the zone yesterday. Pascal is really our only true blue defence bender, and he's out. Gasol helps short-circuit that problem as he's a great playmaker from the middle of the floor and could rip a zone to shreds, but against other defensive schemes we still need that attacker. 

I do think that with Pascal or Gasol (both would be great but even one would do it) the Raptors would make short work of that zone. Ultimately they'll need to hit shots at some point but just having one of those guys to be the guy in the middle of the floor would really open up more cuts and open threes (only about half their threes last night were wide open looks, the other half somewhat contested) which should improve their chances of avoiding another shooting night like last night.
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7shikamaru7
I had a feeling it's going to be an ugly loss. We seem to struggle against big, quick defense. We don't have anyone who can blow by their guys and make the defense move. Aside from Siakam, there really isn't anyone who can create his own shot without looking like he's barreling through a wall. 

Gallinari for Powell + McCaw + Johnson + 2nd Rnd Pick

Klow/Davis
FVV/OG
Gallinari/RHJ
Siakam/Boucher
Gasol/Ibaka

Gallinari can play in the post and be a spot up shooter. He can create his own shot and draw a double team. He is another offensive option to take the load off our guards.
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DanH
7shikamaru7 wrote:
I had a feeling it's going to be an ugly loss. We seem to struggle against big, quick defense. We don't have anyone who can blow by their guys and make the defense move. Aside from Siakam, there really isn't anyone who can create his own shot without looking like he's barreling through a wall. 

Gallinari for Powell + McCaw + Johnson + 2nd Rnd Pick

Klow/Davis
FVV/OG
Gallinari/RHJ
Siakam/Boucher
Gasol/Ibaka

Gallinari can play in the post and be a spot up shooter. He can create his own shot and draw a double team. He is another offensive option to take the load off our guards.


This is the sort of deal the Raptors I'm sure would love to make. Not sure what OKC gets out of it unless they really like Powell. 
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JeffB
Carlito wrote:
Give credit to Miami coaching to have a defensive scheme that exposed our extreme weaknesses ... our guards are very small and can't get to the rim with their size easily, our forwards are generally poor ball handlers, and our bench is very limited given the injuries.  FVV hasn't been the same since returning from his injury and is frankly hurting the team.  If Powell was shooting this way ... the comments on this board would be exploding about how can we ever get rid of him.  I'm not suggesting that with FVV, but we need either Davis or McCaw to help as the primary PG .. I'm not suggesting they are the solution given they really aren't PG's.  FVV struggles against length and playing him off the ball is the best chance to get him going in a game like last night.

I'm back to stating that we need Masai to get a PG with some size on this team ... one that can break down a defense and get the team going. 

If Davis or FVV hit a couple of open 3's we could of won the game ... was very happy with our defense that kept us in the game. 

This game exposed weaknesses that we have even after our guys come back .... Thomas, Powell, Siakam, and Gasol would of helped with 3 point shooting, but our weakness against teams with size exposes our small PG line-up that I believe needs to be fixed to address this issue or other players need to become the primary ball handlers.


I'm very leery of giving FVV a bloated contract tbh. I really like him but he's always been a little up and down and injuries have been an issue with him. And I agree about his size limits him vs certain teams. I'm not convinced he's our PG of the future who should be making 25mil/yr. Although right now I don't see a market for him next summer where he would get that tbh. But a lot can change.
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7shikamaru7
DanH wrote:


This is the sort of deal the Raptors I'm sure would love to make. Not sure what OKC gets out of it unless they really like Powell. 


For OKC, they get something from an expiring contract who could leave in FA. They get a healthier, younger version of Roberson and a young guard they could pair with SGA if they decide to trade Paul. I'm hesitant to include a first round pick as he is just a rental player but if Masai gets desperate, he could include another 2nd rd or give them that protected FRP. 
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moremilk
DanH wrote:

I do think that with Pascal or Gasol (both would be great but even one would do it) the Raptors would make short work of that zone. Ultimately they'll need to hit shots at some point but just having one of those guys to be the guy in the middle of the floor would really open up more cuts and open threes (only about half their threes last night were wide open looks, the other half somewhat contested) which should improve their chances of avoiding another shooting night like last night.


Yup - imo, the zone exposed our lack of skilled big men, not the size of our guards. And we had a bad shooting night, which will happen. We missed a lot of open 3s, and guys like kyle and fred can hit contested 3s just fine, most nights. And, frankly, it shown how important gasol is to this team - Ibaka had a decent night, but he has zero impact on the other guys on the team on offense. He's just a finisher - doesn't set screens or pass or create easy opportunities for anybody else. Gasol makes the offense click in so many ways, and siakam can do a bit of that as well + he's a guy who attracts far more attention than ibaka or OG do.

However, I don't fully agree that fred's troubles against philly were just due to a slump - he was completely shut down inside the circle and his shooting slump, combined with the fact that defensively it's nearly impossible to play kyle and fred together against them, all that made it hard to find minutes for fred.
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moremilk
JeffB wrote:


I'm very leery of giving FVV a bloated contract tbh. I really like him but he's always been a little up and down and injuries have been an issue with him. And I agree about his size limits him vs certain teams. I'm not convinced he's our PG of the future who should be making 25mil/yr. Although right now I don't see a market for him next summer where he would get that tbh. But a lot can change.


playoffs will probably set the market for fred. If he has a monster playoff, he could easily get 25M or more. 

I still think he'll get around brogdon money, 20M or so. There's just not that big of a market this summer for point guards. All the teams that would target him, would almost certainly try to get him to play the 2, next to a PG they already have. And as a 2, committing 25M or more seems like a lot given his size limitations.
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DanH
moremilk wrote:


Yup - imo, the zone exposed our lack of skilled big men, not the size of our guards. And we had a bad shooting night, which will happen. We missed a lot of open 3s, and guys like kyle and fred can hit contested 3s just fine, most nights. And, frankly, it shown how important gasol is to this team - Ibaka had a decent night, but he has zero impact on the other guys on the team on offense. He's just a finisher - doesn't set screens or pass or create easy opportunities for anybody else. Gasol makes the offense click in so many ways, and siakam can do a bit of that as well + he's a guy who attracts far more attention than ibaka or OG do.

However, I don't fully agree that fred's troubles against philly were just due to a slump - he was completely shut down inside the circle and his shooting slump, combined with the fact that defensively it's nearly impossible to play kyle and fred together against them, all that made it hard to find minutes for fred.


The Raps barely played Fred and Kyle together in that series, but when they did they had tremendous defensive numbers. The issue was scoring. Over 62 minutes the two had a 89 DRTG together. Sadly, also an 85 ORTG. But a lot of that ORTG can likely be explained by Fred's shot abandoning him as that's a primary weapon for lineups he is in. 

As for Fred being shut down inside the circle, what else is new? That's most nights for Fred. His outside shooting is far and away the biggest contribution he makes to the offence - and the lack of it is what plagued the Raps in that series, not anything else about his game.
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Northern Neighbour
And that's a major issue with FVV - he's extremely streaky and he gets into prolonged shooting slumps. He offers a lot of other things (toughness, intelligence, ball handling, facilitating), so he's still a valuable player. That said, he'll likely never shoot a great percentage since he has difficulties consistently finishing at the rim and his shot abandons him for long stretches. Whether a team is willing to overlook his weaknesses and give him a big contract remains to be seen (although quite likely).
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