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moremilk
elT wrote:


20 is insane. And it felt and looked like it. And I guess it isn't the first time this season. Sure, injuries and rest had some impact on it but come on, it is ridiculous.


What do you mean? Injuries (and trades) are the ONLY reason. Before people starting dropping out like flies, the starting 5 was very consistent, except the JV/ibaka choice.

Guess what, that early stretch was our best one, we we're 20-4 at some point.

Take our point guard rotation, at almost no point we had all 3 point guards available for the same game, they all got injured, multiple times and then we traded one and signed two new ones.

5 rotation players have missed more than 10 games, and virtually every other player has missed at least a few games.

Kawhi - 17
Kyle - 12
Og - 11
Fred -10
JV -25 or so

Then you had 4 rotation players go out and 3 rotation players come in.

It's been a hell of a season.
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edki
This game discussion focused on Nurse and his experimenting. I want to switch attention back to players performance. Namely Lowry being our main playmaker. Once again Lowry failed to establish team offensive rhythm. Taking bad shot after bad shot. High risk low reward plays that completely disrupted our flow. On defence he’s not being able to stay in front of his check which lead to many open shots and fouls to our bigs. Lowry has been and will be our single major liability going into the playoffs.
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LX
moremilk wrote:


What do you mean? Injuries (and trades) are the ONLY reason. Before people starting dropping out like flies, the starting 5 was very consistent, except the JV/ibaka choice.

Guess what, that early stretch was our best one, we we're 20-4 at some point.

Take our point guard rotation, at almost no point we had all 3 point guards available for the same game, they all got injured, multiple times and then we traded one and signed two new ones.

5 rotation players have missed more than 10 games, and virtually every other player has missed at least a few games.

Kawhi - 17
Kyle - 12
Og - 11
Fred -10
JV -25 or so

Then you had 4 rotation players go out and 3 rotation players come in.

It's been a hell of a season.


We’re not talking about starting lineups, but rather lineupswithin games. Sure there are plenty of reasons for so many different starting lineups.
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LX
edki wrote:
This game discussion focused on Nurse and his experimenting. I want to switch attention back to players performance. Namely Lowry being our main playmaker. Once again Lowry failed to establish team offensive rhythm. Taking bad shot after bad shot. High risk low reward plays that completely disrupted our flow. On defence he’s not being able to stay in front of his check which lead to many open shots and fouls to our bigs. Lowry has been and will be our single major liability going into the playoffs.


Hot take.
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edki
LX wrote:


Hot take.


Maybe, but I’m very angry and disappointed in the way our floor general taking care of the business.
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moremilk
LX wrote:


We’re not talking about starting lineups, but rather lineupswithin games. Sure there are plenty of reasons for so many different starting lineups.


But you can't separate the two, once the starting 5 changes, the rotation gets out of whack.

I think nurse's comments about liking to experiment and whatnot are causing people to think that that's the main reason.

But he may have been the most static of coaches, and we'd still have had a ton of different lineup combinations.

How many games did we have to scramble a rotation with only 2 bigs, or one healthy point guard?

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elT
moremilk wrote:


But you can't separate the two, once the starting 5 changes, the rotation gets out of whack.

I think nurse's comments about liking to experiment and whatnot are causing people to think that that's the main reason.

But he may have been the most static of coaches, and we'd still have had a ton of different lineup combinations.

How many games did we have to scramble a rotation with only 2 bigs, or one healthy point guard?



TWENTY LINE UPS IN ONE GAME, LAST GAME, IS UNJUSTIFIABLE.

There's an entire context in the thread related to that little piece of data.



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elT
edki wrote:


Maybe, but I’m very angry and disappointed in the way our floor general taking care of the business.


Lowry thrives in chaos but there is too much chaos induced by Nurse even for Lowry. The players, Lowry included, are doing an excellent job performing. Twenty different line ups in one game man. Twenty. And it has been going on all season. It is really difficult to build any kind of rhythm and chemistry when everything is a seemingly arbitrary variable and almost no constants.
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Northern Neighbour
elT wrote:


Lowry thrives in chaos but there is too much chaos induced by Nurse even for Lowry. The players, Lowry included, are doing an excellent job performing. Twenty different line ups in one game man. Twenty. And it has been going on all season. It is really difficult to build any kind of rhythm and chemistry when everything is a seemingly arbitrary variable and almost no constants.


It is like Nurse is treating the Raptors like a G-League team, and I think there's some truth to this. 
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moremilk

elT wrote:


TWENTY LINE UPS IN ONE GAME, LAST GAME, IS UNJUSTIFIABLE.

There's an entire context in the thread related to that little piece of data.





meh, only 12 of the 26 lineups employed had more than 1 minute played and we had foul trouble to both Gasol and ibaka, forcing some unconventional lineups + we tried some weirder things when the game started to slip in the 4th. 11 of the 26 lineups tried were in the 4th quarter in fact. IMO, the main reasons we had a ton of combinations were, in this order:

1. early foul trouble for Gasol
2. OG sucking hard and losing PT in the 2nd half
3. desperation attempts in the 4th to make a come back.



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moremilk
Also, on the overall topic of lineups and rotations, I dug up some numbers from nba.com.

For the season, we had 593 lineup combinations. Milwaukee had 601 for example and it didn't seem to hurt them (didn't seem to hurt us all that much in fact, since we have the 2nd best record). Indiana is very stable at only 301 lineups, Boston had 450 and Philly had 641. Indiana had outstanding health this season (in terms of players missing games - obviously the one injury they had is by far the most important), so that allowed them to maintain a consistent rotation throughout (and they made few trades). Philly, Milwaukee and Toronto had a lot of player turnover due to injury and trades, so they had the most combinations played.


By month of the year, we had

165 lineups in November
219 in December
175 in January
140 in February (far fewer games this month).

Take Boston for example

181 (Nov)
187 (Dec)
187 (Jan)
121 (Feb)

not all that different. I looked at a bunch of teams and while we tend to be higher on average, it's not by a huge amount.


Interestingly enough, when you remove the trivial lineups, it turns the tables somewhat. If you only take lineups with at least 10 minutes played, you get this (for the season)

Boston - 71 lineups
Toronto - 57
Milwaukee - 57
Philly - 72
Indiana - 49

If you restrict it even more, say 50 minutes played


Boston - 8 lineups
Toronto - 5
Milwaukee - 2 (!)
Philly - 9
Indiana - 9


Or, if you expand it to 5 minutes or more

Boston - 126 lineups
Toronto - 120
Milwaukee - 131
Philly - 143
Indiana - 81


So, by and large, the number of lineups utilized throughout the season were in line with the competition. We tend to use more very short lived lineups (less than 5 minutes played total), but not significantly so.

I tried really hard to find any stat that would show us as being out of line in terms of lineups, but I couldn't find any.

Personally, I don't see much evidence that Nurse has tinkered excessively with the rotation this season. 

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deaner
moremilk wrote:



meh, only 12 of the 26 lineups employed had more than 1 minute played and we had foul trouble to both Gasol and ibaka, forcing some unconventional lineups + we tried some weirder things when the game started to slip in the 4th. 11 of the 26 lineups tried were in the 4th quarter in fact. IMO, the main reasons we had a ton of combinations were, in this order:

1. early foul trouble for Gasol
2. OG sucking hard and losing PT in the 2nd half
3. desperation attempts in the 4th to make a come back.





It’s also the by-product of a deep team and recent trade/signings. You want to see Meeks. You need to familiarize Lin and Gasol with the entire team at NBA speed.
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deaner
moremilk wrote:
Also, on the overall topic of lineups and rotations, I dug up some numbers from nba.com.

For the season, we had 593 lineup combinations. Milwaukee had 601 for example and it didn't seem to hurt them (didn't seem to hurt us all that much in fact, since we have the 2nd best record). Indiana is very stable at only 301 lineups, Boston had 450 and Philly had 641. Indiana had outstanding health this season (in terms of players missing games - obviously the one injury they had is by far the most important), so that allowed them to maintain a consistent rotation throughout (and they made few trades). Philly, Milwaukee and Toronto had a lot of player turnover due to injury and trades, so they had the most combinations played.


By month of the year, we had

165 lineups in November
219 in December
175 in January
140 in February (far fewer games this month).

Take Boston for example

181 (Nov)
187 (Dec)
187 (Jan)
121 (Feb)

not all that different. I looked at a bunch of teams and while we tend to be higher on average, it's not by a huge amount.


Interestingly enough, when you remove the trivial lineups, it turns the tables somewhat. If you only take lineups with at least 10 minutes played, you get this (for the season)

Boston - 71 lineups
Toronto - 57
Milwaukee - 57
Philly - 72
Indiana - 49

If you restrict it even more, say 50 minutes played


Boston - 8 lineups
Toronto - 5
Milwaukee - 2 (!)
Philly - 9
Indiana - 9


Or, if you expand it to 5 minutes or more

Boston - 126 lineups
Toronto - 120
Milwaukee - 131
Philly - 143
Indiana - 81


So, by and large, the number of lineups utilized throughout the season were in line with the competition. We tend to use more very short lived lineups (less than 5 minutes played total), but not significantly so.

I tried really hard to find any stat that would show us as being out of line in terms of lineups, but I couldn't find any.

Personally, I don't see much evidence that Nurse has tinkered excessively with the rotation this season. 



Wow, great work breaking it down.
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