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Northern Neighbour
LX wrote:


One of them could be more than just a solid starter. Lowry didn’t come into the league as this precious rate jewel that you speak of. And maybe what is really rare is the right players having the right culture, the right situation, the right circumstances. Maybe that is what leads to something beyond mediocrity. Maybe that is what make a “flawed” all-star an all-nba player and still improving.

I mean look at how you define shit. You didn’t say there would be a big empty hole left behind, just a thoroughly mediocre one. Ok. I guess I’ll parse that for whatever it’s worth. But that still overlooks all the work that has been done, and done well, to ensure that they are not moving towards any kind of mediocrity, but rather sustained success. Maybe you are convinced that all that work was done to get to where they could cash in on an opportunity for a player like Kawhi, and I would agree that something of that kind had to be hoped for at some point. It just didn’t absolutely need to be this situation as a result of being at the edge of some cliff.

Yeah - all this talk of paths and cliffs and shit - i need to take a hike. I can hear you saying it - “go take a hike”!


Maybe the team wasn't on the edge of some cliff, but they certainly hit their ceiling with Casey and DD. This was pretty apparent after coming up short in four of the past five post-seasons. As some point, a team or an individual needs to stop being satisfied with staying on the 60th floor of an 80-storey building and aim for the penthouse.
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LX
Northern Neighbour wrote:


Maybe the team wasn't on the edge of some cliff, but they certainly hit their ceiling with Casey and DD. This was pretty apparent after coming up short in four of the past five post-seasons. As some point, a team or an individual needs to stop being satisfied with staying on the 60th floor of an 80-storey building and aim for the penthouse.


Yeah, there was no mistaking that bringing in Nurse was the right thing to do at this point. And i foresaw DeMar being traded at some point. Still, in this case it was about seizing an opportunity, not so much needing to be immediately getting rid of a guy that couldn’t take you higher, in the same sense as Casey.

Again, I get the situation defined in the positives. I just don’t think there was some ulterior rationalizing about how the elevator was likely to get stuck in the parking garage during a flood, or being on the 35th floor if that works in terms of mediocrity. To me, they might as well be in the basement if they can’t maintain a good situation whereby mediocrity is at the very least not at all thorough and long lasting. I think they had that before and can now convert that to something tremendous, or worst case get enough out of this season to move forward regardless of what Kawhi decides on. There are still a lot of options. Nobody was ever looking satisfied. This team has not been standing still like they were complete. There’s been a ton of development, culture change, tweaks in personnel. I’m just disputing the idea of a tiny window to get to that penthouse being what made the trade inevitable. If that was the case Masai probably would have been more desperate to get the deal done in a hurry by adding the assets that he likely held out on.
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3forthewin
DanH wrote:


You doubt this season will be better than ANY of the past 5 seasons?

With LeBron out of the conference, there were two people who were the greatest threat to the Raptors being able to make the finals.  Masai fired one and traded the other.


Casey coached the team to a 59 win season and Demar was also a huge part of that best season ever. If Lebron isn't in their way I think they go to the finals. I just wish they gave them one more chance without Lebron in the way. Then blow it up if they fail, I would be all for that. Now they have a rookie head coach that definitely didn't impress in Summer league. A guy that is counting the days until he signs with the Lakers and a Kyle Lowry that likely wants out too.

For everything Casey Demar and Lowry did for this franchise in 5 years they deserved one more year to try to get to the finals.
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DanH
3forthewin wrote:


Casey coached the team to a 59 win season and Demar was also a huge part of that best season ever. If Lebron isn't in their way I think they go to the finals. I just wish they gave them one more chance without Lebron in the way. Then blow it up if they fail, I would be all for that. Now they have a rookie head coach that definitely didn't impress in Summer league. A guy that is counting the days until he signs with the Lakers and a Kyle Lowry that likely wants out too.

For everything Casey Demar and Lowry did for this franchise in 5 years they deserved one more year to try to get to the finals.


They certainly did not deserve one more year.  You want another year?  At least lose with a little dignity - the far less impressive injured Celtics and Indiana Pacers took LeBron to 7.  This team folded like a cheap suit.

The attitude that LeBron is out of the way now, so our sucky team might default its way to the Finals, is such a losing attitude.  You have to beat the best to win.  Masai managed to assemble a team that if all goes right could actually have a chance in the Finals if they make it there.  Even if last year's team came back and managed to get to the Finals (which I think is unlikely with the Celtics getting their stars back), they would not have stood a chance against whoever came out of the West.
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3forthewin
deaner wrote:
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The good news is you can playback your PVR of last season and rewatch the season while the rest of us watch the improvements. I won’t ruin the ending for you. Most of us love the moves even if we had emotional ties to last years players.


I'm just not sold on there being improvements like you and several others are expecting. Is Leonard really going to give it his all in Toronto or is he going to coast right into his Lakers contract next summer. I don't see a great season from Lowry either and are you expecting Nurse the rookie head coach to take them to the finals? I think we will all see just how important Casey was to this team.

If I'm wrong that will be great. Maybe they go to the finals but I highly doubt it. It's what happens after next season that concerns me. I spent a lot of years waiting for the Raptors to be competitive. Looks to me like they will be right back to sucking after next season. If Masai thinks Leonard is staying especially with how the Demar deal went down....delusional.

A championship without Lebron or Curry on your team was never in the cards here. I enjoyed the heck out of the Raptors becoming rellevant for once. Great regular seasons and playoffs every year with some 2nd and 3rd round appearances were a whole lot better than what we've had.
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DanH
3forthewin wrote:


I'm just not sold on there being improvements like you and several others are expecting. Is Leonard really going to give it his all in Toronto or is he going to coast right into his Lakers contract next summer. I don't see a great season from Lowry either and are you expecting Nurse the rookie head coach to take them to the finals? I think we will all see just how important Casey was to this team.

If I'm wrong that will be great. Maybe they go to the finals but I highly doubt it. It's what happens after next season that concerns me. I spent a lot of years waiting for the Raptors to be competitive. Looks to me like they will be right back to sucking after next season. If Masai thinks Leonard is staying especially with how the Demar deal went down....delusional.

A championship without Lebron or Curry on your team was never in the cards here. I enjoyed the heck out of the Raptors becoming rellevant for once. Great regular seasons and playoffs every year with some 2nd and 3rd round appearances were a whole lot better than what we've had.


The reason why this gamble has very little actual risk to it is because in all likelihood, in my opinion and as far as I can see, those 2nd and 3rd round appearances were going to be disappearing very soon as Lowry started to decline.  Young players improving can't replace the impact of a quasi-superstar like Lowry, and DeRozan was never going to be that.  

I really enjoyed this stretch of success.  I could just see the end coming, one way or another, so a bet on maximizing that success now and taking a shot at extending it makes all the sense in the world.  Standing pat and continuing to see the team win playoff series just wasn't likely in the cards.  
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3forthewin
DanH wrote:


The reason why this gamble has very little actual risk to it is because in all likelihood, in my opinion and as far as I can see, those 2nd and 3rd round appearances were going to be disappearing very soon as Lowry started to decline.  Young players improving can't replace the impact of a quasi-superstar like Lowry, and DeRozan was never going to be that.  

I really enjoyed this stretch of success.  I could just see the end coming, one way or another, so a bet on maximizing that success now and taking a shot at extending it makes all the sense in the world.  Standing pat and continuing to see the team win playoff series just wasn't likely in the cards.  


Don't get me wrong I can see the other side of this also. I'm just having a tough time digesting the way this all went down and I really felt that they deserved one more year. I was fully expecting Lowry to be gone after next season but I just hate that Demar is gone especially for a rental. I honestly saw DeMar staying a raptor for his entire career, I'm sure many others did and he did as well.

Obviously my emotions are running High with all of this as well. I thought I would be over it by now but I'm just not. Maybe once the season starts and I get used to it my feelings about all of it will change.
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deaner
3forthewin wrote:


I'm just not sold on there being improvements like you and several others are expecting. Is Leonard really going to give it his all in Toronto or is he going to coast right into his Lakers contract next summer. I don't see a great season from Lowry either and are you expecting Nurse the rookie head coach to take them to the finals? I think we will all see just how important Casey was to this team.

If I'm wrong that will be great. Maybe they go to the finals but I highly doubt it. It's what happens after next season that concerns me. I spent a lot of years waiting for the Raptors to be competitive. Looks to me like they will be right back to sucking after next season. If Masai thinks Leonard is staying especially with how the Demar deal went down....delusional.

A championship without Lebron or Curry on your team was never in the cards here. I enjoyed the heck out of the Raptors becoming rellevant for once. Great regular seasons and playoffs every year with some 2nd and 3rd round appearances were a whole lot better than what we've had.


Lets wait and see them play a couple of games before we call this team not relevant. That to me makes zero sense but we will find out soon enough. Nav is buying Leonard a warm jacket nullifying the greatest concern. If anything, I think Leonard and his crew will see just how much Masai wanted Leonard here... to give up a fan favorite for a chance at him goes a long way to some. Paul George changed his mind about going to LA because of a similar scenario. They had a chance to trade for him but OKC stepped out and proved it. Not every player wants to play with Lebron and Leonard’s personality seems to be on of those types to me. You want to bail on money to play for the clippers?? I’d risk that our org can prove to him he doesn’t want to do that.
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deaner
3forthewin wrote:


Don't get me wrong I can see the other side of this also. I'm just having a tough time digesting the way this all went down and I really felt that they deserved one more year. I was fully expecting Lowry to be gone after next season but I just hate that Demar is gone especially for a rental. I honestly saw DeMar staying a raptor for his entire career, I'm sure many others did and he did as well.

Obviously my emotions are running High with all of this as well. I thought I would be over it by now but I'm just not. Maybe once the season starts and I get used to it my feelings about all of it will change.


Try thinking of it this way, Demar gets exposed to pop and chip for a couple years (top of the class for both of them) and then there’s a chance he comes back to win a ship here. This will be good for Demar. Very good. He may have needed a shake up to play defense and shoot the 3.
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LKeet6
LX wrote:


One of them could be more than just a solid starter. Lowry didn’t come into the league as this precious rate jewel that you speak of. And maybe what is really rare is the right players having the right culture, the right situation, the right circumstances. Maybe that is what leads to something beyond mediocrity. Maybe that is what made a “flawed” all-star an all-nba player and still improving.

I mean look at how you define shit. You didn’t say there would be a big empty hole left behind, just a thoroughly mediocre one. Ok. I guess I’ll parse that for whatever it’s worth. But that still overlooks all the work that has been done, and done well, to ensure that they are not moving towards any kind of mediocrity, but rather sustained success. Maybe you are convinced that all that work was done to get to where they could cash in on an opportunity for a player like Kawhi, and I would agree that something of that kind had to be hoped for at some point. It just didn’t absolutely need to be this situation as a result of being at the edge of some cliff.

Yeah - all this talk of paths and cliffs and shit - i need to take a hike. I can hear you saying it - “go take a hike”!


Amazing post. I'm not loving the "mediocrity" point either.

Freddie becoming starting quality nba PG with excellent defence and 3pt shooting, demar being demar (whatever that is!) OG being a lot better, siakam being way better than Ibaka, JV being a slightly better version of what he is now.

That's A VERY good (and fun) tea.. I can see people saying that's "treadmill," It's lacking a star, but that's a top 3-4 team, that wins one or two rounds, and that's before maybe signing a FA, or nailing another draft pick.

I'm with you; i can see all the reasons we did it, I'm fine with the rationale, we'll see how it all turns out, but not with the "crisis" avoided line of talking...
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DanH
To be clear, there was no crisis to avoid. There was a clear plan to rebuild once Lowry's contract expired. That's my whole point. The worst case downside here is an acceleration of an existing plan, not some newly realized downside that was definitely not happening if we never make the trade.
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elT
DanH wrote:
To be clear, there was no crisis to avoid. There was a clear plan to rebuild once Lowry's contract expired. That's my whole point. The worst case downside here is an acceleration of an existing plan, not some newly realized downside that was definitely not happening if we never make the trade.


Unnecessary acceleration at cost of valuable assets. That is the worst case scenario now.
I'm fine with it, what is done is done. But there's no need to present it as a good thing.
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DanH
elT wrote:


Unnecessary acceleration at cost of valuable assets. That is the worst case scenario now.
I'm fine with it, what is done is done. But there's no need to present it as a good thing.


You and I obviously disagree on the value of those assets and the benefits of the acceleration relative to those assets.  Hence my presenting it as a break-even (not a good thing, necessarily, just essentially zero risk) worst case.
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