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Northern Neighbour
moremilk wrote:


100% agree, but, unfortunately, I don't think it's confidence. He just doesn't have that mean streak that guys like kobe, lowry or fred had/have. CB4 was like that too, but he was pushed in that leadership role and eventually embraced it. Unfortunately, this team is too good and wright would need to just push himself.

No matter though, I am so confident in our young guys, they are going to take over this team sooner rather than later. 


Yeah, he doesn't have that extra gear or that mean streak or bulldog mentality or whatever you want to call it.

If FVV and Wright were one player, that guy would be an All-NBA player.
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moremilk
demar doesn't really have it either though, which is probably part of the reason he and lowry work so well together. Wouldn't surprise me if wright and fred develop a similar relationship down the road.

the thing about guys like lowry, you can really only have one on the roster, because two would be too much 😉
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Tommy C
moremilk wrote:
demar doesn't really have it either though, which is probably part of the reason he and lowry work so well together. Wouldn't surprise me if wright and fred develop a similar relationship down the road.

the thing about guys like lowry, you can really only have one on the roster, because two would be too much 😉


I think DeMar definitely has it on the court, he is just a quiet guy. I.e Joe Johnson.
I can absolutely see his killer instinct. T Ross on the other hand lol
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Northern Neighbour
Tommy C wrote:
I think DeMar definitely has it on the court, he is just a quiet guy. I.e Joe Johnson. I can absolutely see his killer instinct. T Ross on the other hand lol


I agree. DD has that quiet fire, that burn to get better and be great. The dunk the other night in Detroit proved that.
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LX
Yeah I don't think he necessarily needs a mean streak to have a huge impact. He just needs to trust in himself a little more. Where Fred sees opportunities a half second before they appear, Delon tends to be a split second late in recognizing them. That wasn't the case before the injury, so I have to think that weighs on him to some extent.
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moremilk
Tommy C wrote:
I think DeMar definitely has it on the court, he is just a quiet guy. I.e Joe Johnson. I can absolutely see his killer instinct. T Ross on the other hand lol


yeah, but just like bosh, it's a developed skill. Guys like lowry or kobe were born with it 😉

as I said earlier, bosh, and demar too, got a chance to be the guy when the team as bad and they learned it. Wright will probably never get that chance on this team, so it will be a lot harder for him to develop it.

We'll see what happens, but star or not, both fred and wright will be a solid rotation players at the very least.
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DocHolliday
moremilk wrote:


yeah, but just like bosh, it's a developed skill. Guys like lowry or kobe were born with it 😉

as I said earlier, bosh, and demar too, got a chance to be the guy when the team as bad and they learned it. Wright will probably never get that chance on this team, so it will be a lot harder for him to develop it.

We'll see what happens, but star or not, both fred and wright will be a solid rotation players at the very least.


Are you saying that RuPaul developed a killer instinct?  And Demar?  Based on the fact they played on shitty teams? You don't think FvV or Wright don't have that naturally?  Sorry MM, you make no sense to me.  A killer instinct isn't learned but players can learn to win.  If you have both then you have your stars.

Bosh has no killer instinct, he just learned how to win.
DeMar has a killer instinct but needed to learn more skills to learn to impose his will (and apparently learn to manage his depression).
FvV has that same look that Lowry does...you can't teach or learn that.
Wright has the same drive to want to put teams away but is being slowed by injuries.
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moremilk
no, the fact that the teams were shitty gave bosh and demar an opportunity to lead and close games and develop that mentality. Even so, they're nothing like kyle, they will never have that fire. It just can't be thought, but you can develop alternate leadership/closing skills that are a decent enough surrogate.

As a complementary player though, it's hard - wright will never get the opportunity to lead and his leash is a lot shorter than demar's ever was. If the team was shitty and we didn't have demar and kyle and the rest, wright could play 35 minutes a game and would be called to lead in close games and would learn through many mistakes what it takes.
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LX
Learning by winning as a team is the best learning there is. You've heard of the Spurs right moremilk?
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elT
MJ's legacy in terms of all the fake narratives built around his myths is by far the most annoying basketball shit ever. The game doesn't need any of it. Neither did MJ. 

[220px-Michael_Jordan_crying] 
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Tommy C
moremilk wrote:
no, the fact that the teams were shitty gave bosh and demar an opportunity to lead and close games and develop that mentality. Even so, they're nothing like kyle, they will never have that fire. It just can't be thought, but you can develop alternate leadership/closing skills that are a decent enough surrogate.

As a complementary player though, it's hard - wright will never get the opportunity to lead and his leash is a lot shorter than demar's ever was. If the team was shitty and we didn't have demar and kyle and the rest, wright could play 35 minutes a game and would be called to lead in close games and would learn through many mistakes what it takes.


But Wright’s situation is not even close to DeMar’s back then nor the expectation to lead a team.
Wright is a backup PG and can play the two, injuries slow him down and while he has many good skills let’s not kid ourself that he may be a star one day nor has a star potential.
I’m just happy to see him on the floor bringing something but I doubt his ceiling is as high as you make it seem.
Lead a team without Kyle and Demar? I don’t know, reality is that he is 26 y/o and needs to get better, be more fluid and more comfortable out there. DD came in to the league when he was 19 and Wright came at 22 after 4 years in college, so their starting point was very different nor, as I have mentioned, the expectations.
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moremilk
LX wrote:
Learning by winning as a team is the best learning there is. You've heard of the Spurs right moremilk?


is there? Seems to be an awful number of superstars who learned to win on bad teams too. Not going to argue that a solid environment like the Spurs is not great to pick up good habits and, probably, for role players it's the best place to develop. But one thing you won't get on a team like that is minutes (unless you deserve them). 

Not sure why you guys are focusing on the bad aspect - my point is clearly not that. It's the minutes aspect, I wonder if demar would be the player he is now if he started his career in a place like SAS. 
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moremilk
Tommy C wrote:
But Wright’s situation is not even close to DeMar’s back then nor the expectation to lead a team. Wright is a backup PG and can play the two, injuries slow him down and while he has many good skills let’s not kid ourself that he may be a star one day nor has a star potential. I’m just happy to see him on the floor bringing something but I doubt his ceiling is as high as you make it seem. Lead a team without Kyle and Demar? I don’t know, reality is that he is 26 y/o and needs to get better, be more fluid and more comfortable out there. DD came in to the league when he was 19 and Wright came at 22 after 4 years in college, so their starting point was very different nor, as I have mentioned, the expectations.


well, the discussion is if Wright has what it takes to become a leader on this team in a couple of years. I'm high on him, but I won't argue that it's unlikely wright will reach kyle or demar's level. I'm just saying that it's possible, while in fred's case I'm almost certain it is not. 
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DocHolliday
moremilk wrote:


well, the discussion is if Wright has what it takes to become a leader on this team in a couple of years. I'm high on him, but I won't argue that it's unlikely wright will reach kyle or demar's level. I'm just saying that it's possible, while in fred's case I'm almost certain it is not. 


This narrative is why FvV wasn't drafted.  It's also why he struggled to get on a team.  Good thing Masai and Casey saw more.  He brings so many intangibles to the table, enough that in less than 2 years he's gone from pine rider to 3rd string to backing up Lowry.  He's become an integral part of the clutch time rotation and he's the definitive quarterback/leader of the 2nd unit that has the highest 5 man net rating in the league.  He definitely has his flaws but so did DDR and Klow back then and believe me, Lowry's play then wasn't that inspiring.  

On an aside, what's interesting is that FvV at 23 compared to Lowry at 23 have very similar stats and style of play - except that FvV has a better shot and slightly better DRtg's, even though Lowry at 23 had already been in the league 4 years.  FvV has that look, the one where he wants to win games and want's too get better and will do whatever it takes to make that happen - you can't teach that.

I wholeheartedly agree with LX with how Delon and FvV are great compliments to each other and balance each others weaknesses.

It's difficult for me to read absolute caps on players and their upside. Many on the Raps have proven others wrong that carried such narratives against them; players like DDR and JV and even Coach Casey.  
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moremilk
DocHolliday wrote:


This narrative is why FvV wasn't drafted.  It's also why he struggled to get on a team.  Good thing Masai and Casey saw more.  He brings so many intangibles to the table, enough that in less than 2 years he's gone from pine rider to 3rd string to backing up Lowry.  He's become an integral part of the clutch time rotation and he's the definitive quarterback/leader of the 2nd unit that has the highest 5 man net rating in the league.  He definitely has his flaws but so did DDR and Klow back then and believe me, Lowry's play then wasn't that inspiring.  

On an aside, what's interesting is that FvV at 23 compared to Lowry at 23 have very similar stats and style of play - except that FvV has a better shot and slightly better DRtg's, even though Lowry at 23 had already been in the league 4 years.  FvV has that look, the one where he wants to win games and want's too get better and will do whatever it takes to make that happen - you can't teach that.

I wholeheartedly agree with LX with how Delon and FvV are great compliments to each other and balance each others weaknesses.

It's difficult for me to read absolute caps on players and their upside. Many on the Raps have proven others wrong that carried such narratives against them; players like DDR and JV and even Coach Casey.  


for every demar there are a bunch of joey grahams too. And demar's ceiling was always very high, his athletic ability was off the charts, he was only missing the things that can be learned, if you have the work ethic (for which he was praised since season 1) and are lucky enough to avoid big injuries.

If you don't want to explore the ceiling of a particular player that's fine, but masai won't have that luxury. He will need to make some tough decisions at some point. I'm pretty sure we'll retain fred this summer, but what if he has to make a choice between powell and fred? The only way to make that choice is to compare their ceilings - who will be a better player in 2-3 years? They will probably make a similar salary after this season, so it's all about fit and potential.
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