moremilk
I wonder if the most important factor in retaining kahwi is not Kyle Lowry?

For years, he's been an underrated superstar, consistently ranking in top 10 by many advanced metrics, but rarely acknowledged as such by most people, including raptor fans.

I think even most raptor fans would consider Butler as better than Kyle. People talk that kawhi may partner with Butler in la or that he may leave to join up with another superstar somewhere.

But isn't Kyle already that superstar? What if , as the season goes along, kawhi fully appreciates how good Kyle is and realizes that he already has that superstar partner here?
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moremilk
One caveat to this theory is that Kyle is older than Jimmy. But, he's not much older, and we managed his minutes way better lately. Butler was ran into the ground by thinks, both in Chicago and in Minny. And Kyle is not relyiias much on athletic abilities, he's a shooter and a positional defender.

Finally, as he gets older, there are all the young guys coming from behind.

Between the super fun bench mob and Kyle, our best hope is probably for kawhi to decide that there is a lot to like there, not easily replicated anywhere else.

Because the one thing I can't accept is that kahwi will just go to la because he wants to be in la. I think that's garbage talk.
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JeffB
Kyle Lowry is not a superstar. That being said, I think he can be a big part of possibly staying. But imo the main reasons to stay are money and winning. Another is the idea of being able to dominate the EC for the next 4-5yrs along with Boston/Philadelphia in theory. I also think his relationships with Nurse/Ujiri will be huge. If he thinks this organization is all about winning than he'll consider staying. To say the least, there are many factors that will be at play in trying convince him to stay.

I don't even want to discuss Butler, he's a tool.
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shadowfax
both (Leonard and Lowry) will be gone after this season

just my 2 Canadian cents
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JeffB
shadowfax wrote:
both (Leonard and Lowry) will be gone after this season

just my 2 Canadian cents


I agree. I've said Lowry would be traded in the summer of 2019 since he re-signed. And well, I don't see Leonard staying.
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LeBronIsYourDaddy
 a guy like Lowry is more important for a guy like Kawhi in terms of making him a better player than Jimmy Butler is. Lowry is underrated because he doesnt need to put up numbers to make huge impacts on games like alot of "superstars" have to because they only play a very scoring heavy type of game. Kyle at his best makes so many good decisions on both ends he makes life easier for all his teammates. He moves the ball, he knows where you like it, he can run PnRs all day, he fights for boards.

 I think Kawhi gonna like playing him with. Once Lowry figures out the spots Kawhi is golden in he will get lots of touches there. Gonna be hard to double Kawhi when he is surrounded by all 3 point shooters.
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moremilk
JeffB_STR82DVD wrote:
Kyle Lowry is not a superstar.


well, that's kind of my point. What if, kyle is a superstar, in disguise? The advanced stats do support that theory. His all around game and lack of any super elite skill mask his full contributions to the game.

But, from fans to media, we're really just outsiders - we can't really know the true value of a player. Only by playing, or coaching a guy day by day, can you fully gauge his worth.

So, my point is that, by playing next to kyle, what if kawhi realizes that he's already paired with an elite player. I think most people agree that lowry is a better pairing with kawhi even if you value a butler or paul George more anyway.

My assumptions about kawhi's selection process next summer are that he's going to primarily going to look for the best chance at winning a title, ideally as the best player. I really don't think he will go play with LeBron, at least not as a first choice. The main draw from LA is their ability to sign two max players + the market appeal.

If, for sake of argument, we just compare the Clippers with Toronto, and if kyle is judged by kawhi as a top 10 or 15 player, i.e. a bona fide superstar, can he do better than that in LA? Outside of Butler, most other elite players (KD, Lebron)  are probably going to stay put. From the 2nd tier of players comparable to kyle, would any of them be a better choice for a kawhi second mate?

Not to mention that the rest of the raptors team is much better than what the clippers have. The city and the fans are probably going to grow on kawhi. The main drawback here is the lack of marketing prospects. He may also value the opportunity of being the main rival to Lebron in LA. If, though, Kyle can impress him and they develop great chemistry - will it be enough to tilt the balance decisively in our advantage?

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LeBronIsYourDaddy

 i think kyle is super important but for Kawhi to consider a 5 year deal here is will be thinking beyond just Kyle. This is probably Kyles last 2 years as a Raptor. Kawhi would need to believe in the culture, system, Nurse, Masai etc aswell as all the other "life" considerations that we can only speculate about.

 Im hoping Kawhi can embrace being a leader instead of a kid like he was on the Spurs. He has a chance to grow in that department and maybe its what he would like. We have a bunch of kids with lots of potential. One built very much like himself and very young. If he embraces making them better and has belief in their futures it could go a long way to selling Toronto as a location for the future and not just "win now". Kids play a fun style here. They D up hard, i think Kawhi is gonna like it.

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DocHolliday

moremilk wrote:

well, that's kind of my point. What if, kyle is a superstar, in disguise? The advanced stats do support that theory. His all around game and lack of any super elite skill mask his full contributions to the game.

But, from fans to media, we're really just outsiders - we can't really know the true value of a player. Only by playing, or coaching a guy day by day, can you fully gauge his worth.

So, my point is that, by playing next to kyle, what if kawhi realizes that he's already paired with an elite player. I think most people agree that lowry is a better pairing with kawhi even if you value a butler or paul George more anyway.

My assumptions about kawhi's selection process next summer are that he's going to primarily going to look for the best chance at winning a title, ideally as the best player. I really don't think he will go play with LeBron, at least not as a first choice. The main draw from LA is their ability to sign two max players + the market appeal.

If, for sake of argument, we just compare the Clippers with Toronto, and if kyle is judged by kawhi as a top 10 or 15 player, i.e. a bona fide superstar, can he do better than that in LA? Outside of Butler, most other elite players (KD, Lebron)  are probably going to stay put. From the 2nd tier of players comparable to kyle, would any of them be a better choice for a kawhi second mate?

Not to mention that the rest of the raptors team is much better than what the clippers have. The city and the fans are probably going to grow on kawhi. The main drawback here is the lack of marketing prospects. He may also value the opportunity of being the main rival to Lebron in LA. If, though, Kyle can impress him and they develop great chemistry - will it be enough to tilt the balance decisively in our advantage?



It's a good assumption though I don't see that as the main driving force in Leonard as he's already won.  For me, he's already going to be the best player on every team in the league with the exceptions of GSW, NOP and LAL (imo - though not far away); definitely if he goes to the Clippers - where I can see him going.  Add in Butler or a potentially healthy DMC, the LA market, a chance to shape the franchise, plus being close to home, then I'd say they definitely have an edge over every team.

Still, I'd like to think it would be too much money, too much success and too much Canadian love for him to leave TO.

edit: great post btw

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LX
Kyle has a chance to become something of a superstar this season. I’ve always felt that he would be a guy that could be key in defining just the right system with just the right guys around him. He could become less of a pitbull and more cerebral overall, and that could make the pitbull in him that much more dangerous over the long run. Kawhi could make that pretty easy for him too.
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moremilk
DocHolliday wrote:



It's a good assumption though I don't see that as the main driving force in Leonard as he's already won.  For me, he's already going to be the best player on every team in the league with the exceptions of GSW, NOP and LAL (imo - though not far away); definitely if he goes to the Clippers - where I can see him going.  Add in Butler or a potentially healthy DMC, the LA market, a chance to shape the franchise, plus being close to home, then I'd say they definitely have an edge over every team.

Still, I'd like to think it would be too much money, too much success and too much Canadian love for him to leave TO.

edit: great post btw



Do you really think the clippers, if they add kawhi and cousins or butler,  and lose a few pieces to make room for both, are going to be better than this season's raptors? I'd be highly skeptical. Cousins doesn't have the best rep and butler is not an ideal fit + he's fairly old. 

Our young guys are really good, and they may just have a monster season this year. And, if they click, that's priceless, as he probably never really had that in SAS. 

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DocHolliday
moremilk wrote:


Do you really think the clippers, if they add kawhi and cousins or butler,  and lose a few pieces to make room for both, are going to be better than this season's raptors? I'd be highly skeptical. Cousins doesn't have the best rep and butler is not an ideal fit + he's fairly old. 

Our young guys are really good, and they may just have a monster season this year. And, if they click, that's priceless, as he probably never really had that in SAS. 



No, but like I was saying, I don't think winning is the main driving force in his decisions - which is where we differ.  As for the rest, I 100% agree with you.
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JeffB
moremilk wrote:


Do you really think the clippers, if they add kawhi and cousins or butler,  and lose a few pieces to make room for both, are going to be better than this season's raptors? I'd be highly skeptical. Cousins doesn't have the best rep and butler is not an ideal fit + he's fairly old. 

Our young guys are really good, and they may just have a monster season this year. And, if they click, that's priceless, as he probably never really had that in SAS. 



Butler is fairly old? He just turned 29. 🤣
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LOG
shadowfax wrote:
both (Leonard and Lowry) will be gone after this season

just my 2 Canadian cents


Well then it's good that there's no such a thing
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LX
The key to Kawhi staying is having him feel like he’d rather play here than closer to home. There’s every chance that he has a great year and enjoys his time on the court and even off the court, but still goes to LA. To me it’s just not worth thinking about. More than that, it’s annoying to be constantly looking forward to some decision that goes well beyond the control of everybody but him essentially. I’m just going to enjoy this season, and if there’s more to come then terrific.
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